Tonight on Countdown the great Keith Olbermann kicked it up a notch. Picking up where Bill Clinton left off on Fox News Sunday.
The video of Keith’s Special Comment tonight is up on Crooks and Liars now.
Here’s the text of tonight’s special comment by Keith from MSNBC
Watch the video here.
“A textbook definition of cowardice”
The headlines about them are, of course, entirely wrong.
It is not essential that a past president, bullied and sandbagged by a monkey posing as a newscaster, finally lashed back.
It is not important that the current President’s portable public chorus has described his predecessor’s tone as “crazed.”
Our tone should be crazed. The nation’s freedoms are under assault by an administration whose policies can do us as much damage as al Qaida; the nation’s marketplace of ideas is being poisoned by a propaganda company so blatant that Tokyo Rose would’ve quit.
Nonetheless. The headline is this:
Bill Clinton did what almost none of us have done in five years.
He has spoken the truth about 9/11, and the current presidential administration.
“At least I tried,” he said of his own efforts to capture or kill Osama bin Laden. “That’s the difference in me and some, including all of the right-wingers who are attacking me now. They had eight months to try; they did not try. I tried.”
Thus in his supposed emeritus years has Mr. Clinton taken forceful and triumphant action for honesty, and for us; action as vital and as courageous as any of his presidency; action as startling and as liberating, as any, by any one, in these last five long years.
The Bush Administration did not try to get Osama bin Laden before 9/11.
The Bush Administration ignored all the evidence gathered by its predecessors.
The Bush Administration did not understand the Daily Briefing entitled “Bin Laden Determined To Strike in U.S.”
The Bush Administration did not try.
You can read the rest of Keith’s special comment here.
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This is another excellent commentary by Keith Olbermann. If President Clinton had not said what he said to Mr. Wallace we would not have seen this excellent and truthful commentary. This show is an excellent forum for democrats, they can use it to connect with the voters and tell the American people why they should vote democratic and what democrats will do once they gain control of the House of Representatives. They can use this show to sell their plan for the democratic party to the American voters.
It is going to be really tough to gain control of either the House or the Senate.
This was another superb essay by Keith. Bush is a coward as he tries to rewrite history and save his own skin.
My thoughts were slightly different.
I wonder if the Founding Fathers – who the Right Wingnuts always mention would be really excited about risking everything they have – including their lives – so Bush can torture people.
I wonder if Lincoln – the first Republican – is really excited about the carnage caused by the Civil War so Bush can torture people.
I wonder if the soldiers who landed on Normandy and froze their asses of at Bastogne are glad their sacrifice is used by Bush to torture people.
I wonder if my neighbors son-in-law who is going back to Iraq for the third time leaving a wife 7 months pregnant is really happy about the sacrifice they are making so Bush can torture people.
Yeah, the MSM is giving Bill and by extension hill excellent coverage. the left is tripping over itself with the big dog showed the dems how its done, while the msm is now claiming clinton showed the dems the way to fight never mind his wife’s constant fence sitting on Iraq.
Bill has once again made himself the center story and the press and left is more than happy to obige.
Bill did this to help hill and save his own so called legacy. The msm and GOP have been blaming him for years why is he all of a sudden so touchy. Could it be he doesn’t want this to rub off on his wife in 08?
Hey, I cheer anybody who gets the best of Faux news media whores but clinton played the press and the left once again.
Pen,
Does it matter that what Clinton said was the truth?
After all, the right can’t let truth get in the way of a good smear job.
I couldn’t stand Bubba and was a Repub until 2000 so don’t count me as a Clinton cheerleader. But everytthing he and Olberbann said are the truth.
That should count for something.
Tell me when did the Torturers Apprentice ever tell the truth?
Also bear in mind that Fox blind-sided bubba with a different topic in an attempt to throw him off.
Clinton is a lot of things but he is the most gifted of speakers.
Are you sure fox blind sided him? for 8 years fox dragged him and his family through the mud so the chances that they were going to stick to his global iniative was pretty small and he had to know that.
There have been other who have said 9/11 happened on the bush watch but they didn’t recive the fan fare as clinton.
Clinton is a gifted speaker and heck up till 05 I’d probably voted for him myself if he could have gotten a 3rd term.
I’ve often said the dems needed to hit the msm and rethugs harder.
Now granted the path to 9/11 movie may have gotten under his skin more than I thought and he just unloaded on this guy.
And Wallace should have stuck to the purpose of the interview but he doesn’t come out bad either. Those who don’t watch faux now know his face. to the right he made clinton sweat and to the left he is a two-faced media whore.
Do I think 9/11 is clinton’s fault no. It’s bush’s fault it was on his watch.
But after murdoch giving a fund raiser for hill and the years of clinton and faux mouthing off at each other that he would sit down with the enemy only to be caught unexpected naa.
Clinton is an opportunist nothing wrong with it but its not the second coming folks.
If this gets some of the dems to get into the msm face and call them what they are great.
follow bubba’s lead just make sure you watch out for the pile of crap in the road ahead.
It can be argued that Bubba was furious over they way his legacy is portrayed, therefore, he is trying to save it and mobilize the Democratic base at the same time.
glad to see good complex reaction here, as befits our most complex 42nd president. I loved Olbermann’s commentary — he’s been just terrific– and I also was delighted to see Clinton push back on Chris Wallace, and delighted that people have finally started to take notice. But I agree with pen that Clinton’s motives here are , as usual , shall we say, complex; also, there are plenty of people who have been talking the truth before Clinton, and I’ve been very frustrated that no one’s been listening to such people ( for instance, John Kerry, as one egregious example, as well as a few others). As for Clinton’s courage here, I’m , again , grateful that he spoke out: but what, in fact was he risking here? For the courage category, I’d nominate poeple like Kerry, Kennedy, Gore, and Feingold, like various whistleblowers in the FBI and CIA, like Richard Clarke, like the retired generals who spoke yesterday in the Dorgan hearings).
You guys crack me up. You give a pass to the guy who was running the country for 8 years after it was attacked several times. Each time he did nothing. He had several documented opportunities to capture UBL. Each time he did nothing. On the other hand, you blame the guy who had the reigns for 8 months 100%. Oh, and after we were attacked, this guy did SOMETHING. I would challenge you all to a battle of wits, but you are unarmed myopians.
Tex,
It is kinda early to rewrite history. Normally, the players are out of the limelight first.
You say Clinton did nothing about terrorism?
Let’s do a quick recap about what happened.
After the first WTC bombing, guess whose watch caught the guys? You guessed it…Bubba.
After the Cole was damaged (which would not have occurred if the Cole skipper had not ignored warnings about the possibility) and the embassy’s were bombed, Clinton did try to kill bin Laden. Do you remember wag-the-dog and the Right Wing cries about how Clinton was only trying to divert attention? Clinton has a lot of faults but he was going after bin Laden – while the Repubs were obstructing every move.
And what has Bush done?
Ignored warnings about bin Laden from Richard Clarke
Allowed 9/11 to happen.
Allowed bin Laden to escape from Tora Bora.
Lied to the public about Iraq and launched a misguided invasion. Because of this, terrorism is blooming in the Middle East.
Allowed the Taliban to rule Afghanistan except for a few blocks in Kabul.
Killed nearly 2800 and wounded over 19,000 Americans which he calls a comma
Got tens of thousands of Iraq people killed and wounded.
Made us less safe today then we were after 9/11/2001.
Ran up a huge financial debt.
The rest of the world hates us.
Made Iran the only winner in the Middle East.
Made us less free then we were after 9/11/2001
There are many, many more things Bush has done. I think you get the picture.
Pen,
I do not know if it was the 9/11 movie or Wallace’s attempt to continue the BushCo attempt at blaming Clinton for 9/11 that pissed off bubba more.
I think Clinton very eloquently ripped him a new one.
The response must have angered BushCo because Rice came out today with their own rewrite. I think this back-and-forth is great because it keeps a major Bush failure front and center in the news.
Beautifully put, battlebob, but I’m afraid it’s falling on deaf ears with tex and the other Bush followers. They have an uncanny ability to bypass facts, even those that are readily available to the public to verify or toss aside, and instead the followers just keep repeating what they’ve been programmed to repeat. There is no new input from varied sources, no real thought process going on there, just a shoring up of the party line. It truly is living in fantasy land, and the scariest part of all is that while the chief architects know what they are doing, their followers truly are in the dark — by choice!
Battlebob, you win. I cannot argue a point with you. When you begin with the premise that the president is trying to foment disaster, there is no way that one can make a retort that will convince you of anything.
“Allowed 9/11 to happen.”
“Allowed bin Laden to escape from Tora Bora.”
Sentences like this imply intent.
I would never imply that about any Democrat or Republican.
You are either a moonbat or a bordline obsessive cospiracy theorist. Either way, there is a straightjacket in your future. Good luck convincing anyone other than the Olbermann crowd of anything. How big is his audience 2k? There are probably more “flat earthers” around than that…
Tex
Thanks for stopping by drooling…
tex Says:
September 26th, 2006 at 2:03 pm edit
LOL!! Would you take the word of a Former Marine and Former Reagan Republican? Bush is a war criminal and it is documented! He has violated not only the Geneva accords, but our very Constitution. Just so you know, I have not yet gotten around to changing my registration. So this is coming from a registered Republican! So what say you now?
BTW, how many days have you served in the military? Not pretend, but real days. Feel free to share proof! Till then, IMPEACH and IMPRISON the whole lot of them!
Rethug trolls out again are they?
Look compared to what dubya did pre 9-11 Clinton got a heck of a lot closer to popping off bin laden no doubt about that.
Condi needs to shut up. She had documents on her desk a month or 2 before 9/11 and as national security adviser if anybody is to be canned about 9/11 she should be one of them. She failed as miserably at her job as Bush, Tenet, Rummy and the rest.
I agree this dust up keeps the bin laden issue out there but to what end?
Instead of the Democratic Party fighting mad all the public hears is Clinton is fighting mad.
Bill and his wife can’t become the only face of the Democratic Party again or the dems are toast in 06 and 08.
I hear what everyone is saying about being happy somebody in the party stood up and smacked it to faux.
Others have stood up and we can’t let them (JK, Feingold, Gore) get sidelined by the bill and hill show.
Clinton had his chance at a legacy but he was foolish enough to taint some of it with a floozy named Monica.
How long do you think the case will be made that the last dem pres was fooling around with his mistress while bin laden was plotting against us?
Like MBK said Bill is complex. He is like a Pandora’s Box for the dem party.
God these Bush loving drooling parrots like “Tex” are such sad excuses for human beings. The most amazing thing about them all though is not even just that none of them seem capable of every doing anything but parrot the same slop, almost word for word, as all the others or their total lack of any actual facts, on almost any subject, or even how totally f’ing clueless and removed from reality they are.
The most amazing thing to me is that they all consistently top it off by projecting their exact shortcomings onto others. And ALWAYS just after (or at the same time) they have proudly and gleefully proven their lack of any facts, truth or the capability for any reason or independent thought.
They are simply total wastes of flesh…
Tex,
Too bad drinking the kool-aid took away your ability to think for yourself. Don’t worry…there are a lot of your right wingnut psychopath buddies to help you with that.
Bush because of his ineptness, allowed 911 to happen. By ignoring all that happened prior he gave put out the welcome mat for the Saudi 19. This was his decision and direction.
Bin Laden was cornered in Tora Bora. BushCo made a decision to allow the local warloards to finish him off – which never happened. We don’t know if this was a Bush, Rumy, or someone else. Bush admitted that bin Laden helped him win the election so maybe Karl Roves helped out.
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.
Like I said, you guys rock. Why is everything a conspiracy theory? Why the paranoia? You can call me a parrot, you can say that I drank the kool-aid, you can call me a right-wing nut job. But the simple fact is that since 9/11 there have been no terrorist attacks on our soil. There are no Roswell, World Trade Towers, JFK, CIA, conspiracy theories that can disprove that. I do not care that it was Bush that invaded Iraq. I wish 41 or Clinton had finished the job. I would support our Commander in Chief no matter what party he is from. Take off your tin-foil hats and try to show a little loyalty.
You guys are hilarious!! I know that I’m just a plain spoken red stater, but the lunacy that you guys spew out is nothing short of class A entertainment. I can’t believe you are going to stand up and froth at the mouth taking up for the same man that said “It depends on what your version of the word “is” is”. We are the morons? HA!! The truth is that Bubba didn’t do much aside from bombing an aspirin factory in his heroing battle against terror. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that he does wish he would have taken up the many offers he had for Bin Laden. However, he chose not to, and America suffered. Hindsite, is as they say, 20/20. He should be thanking W for trying to correct his mistakes, not condemning him & trying to erase the facts. (Remember dear Sandy Berger stuffing those facts down his pants??) And W is the revisionist? Please.
RebelTX
“But the simple fact is that since 9/11 there have been no terrorist attacks on our soil.”
More than 2,700 brave American troops have died in the Iraq war. Is it acceptable for the insurgents to kill innocent Iraqi women, children and elderly people to be butchered right outside their houses and left to die like animals in the streets? Since 9/11, there have been attacks in Malaysia, Spain, England and India. The world is not safer. The NIE proves that.
Loyalty is good; blind faith is extremely dangerous. It is patriotic to question our leaders when we have doubts about what they are doing. They are here to serve us, the people. Not the other way around. That is what makes America great.
Republican President Dwight Eisenhower said: “Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionist and rebel men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.”
Probus, WE have not been attacked since 9/11. President Bush is not the Prime Minister or President of Spain, Malaysia, etc. He is our president, and it is his most sacred duty to protect the people of America. That, he has done.
Of the 2,700 you speak of. They were all volunteer, and are still signing up in record numbers. War is hell, duty to American freedom is heroic. It is not free, and is being tested by both Islamic extremists, and leftists such as yourself. I agree that blinded faith is dangerous, but blinded dissent is more dangerous.
9/11 happened on HIS watch. Was his intelligence gang asleep at the wheel?
What a terrible legacy to carry.
Did he protect us on 9/11?
Let’s keep personal attacks out of this. Not being attacked since 9-11 cannot be an indication of our safety. The FBI has foiled numerous attacks inside the United States this proves that while steps may be taken to foil these attacks, we are not safe. Claims by this administration that we are safer but not safe are illogical and erroneous. The NIE says that we are not safe. There are more terrorists today in some 65 countries than there were when the 9-11 attacks took place. I fully realize that Mr. Bush is my president which is why he should be held to a higher standard than the average person. He is supposed to protect the American people. Saying that we are safe is just an election year claim. Our 16 spy intelligence agencies’ joint assessment does not support his claims.
Our brave troops who gave the ultimate sacrifice may be all-volunteer but recruitment numbers are down overall. Because they are all volunteer indicates that they want to serve their country, this does not indicate that they support this war. The military is not reaching its goal of signing up new recruits. Yes, war is hell, especially if it is the wrong war especially, if it is not part of the war on terror. Yes, duty to American freedom is heroic we all honor their sacrifice which makes it all the more imperative for us to question those who sent them to war. It is our moral obligation and right to question our leaders when they make errors of judgment. They are human beings not God. You equate me with Islamic extremists because you differ and disagree with my political beliefs. I want to fight and destroy terrorists. You question my patriotism however, I don’t question yours. The right to dissent goes to our core principles as a nation based on ideals of democracy and liberty. Dissent can never be blind, it is always informed. It is my right to question my leaders because this is a democracy and I want to win the war on terror. That is my patriotic right and no one can take that right away from any American.
Actually, I’d trust a leader with some solid foreign policy and domestic policy experience behind him instead of an actor.
I’d pick a person who has devoted their whole life to politics and knows their way around the crucial issues that affect us. Clooney may have to work his way up the ranks to show some serious political muscle. And that takes years.
Ooops! posted in the wrong place. (-:
“Not being attacked since 9-11 cannot be an indication of our safety.”
Good point. I certainly don’t feel safe. How long will America keep looking over our back? Time for a new approach…something more reasonable and fool-proof.
RebelTx
Thanks so much for sharing. When you right wingnuts show up here and start your Bush drooling we know we are making a difference.
Probus, I guess people NOT dying as a result of terrorist attacks is not evidence of being safer? I guess the guys who died at the embassy in Africa or on the USS Cole were safer??? We suffered multiple attacks and it emboldened them. Not finishing the job in Iraq emboldened them. You act as if terrorism was invented after we attacked Iraq. After 9/11 the decision was made that terrorists will suffer for the attacks they inflict on us.
Pam, you are not making a difference. You, Ned Lamont, Kos, “progressives”, etc. will have a sad day in November and so on. The truth is that political power must be backed by force (many Democrats recognize this). Without the implicit threat of the use of force there is no political power. Thus the plethora of ignored UN Resolutions. Thus the “President” of Iran using signed agreements as toilet paper. Force must be used from time to time to establish order. That’s not me speaking check your political philosophy books. Even GOD used force. No one takes anyone seriously minus that implicit threat.
tex, I guess you were around when God used force for the first time? I suppose God has a brand new spokesperson.
Actually, Pam IS making a big differnce.
You’re here on this forum, aren’t you?
tex,
We act as if terrorism was invented after we invaded Iraq? Hardly, it’s just that W doesn’t seem to understand it’s been around since before pirates. And has never wanted to use the methods that had been proven, with the IRA, the Mafia,etc. and expand on them.
Many Democrats understood the need to have force behind political power when they voted for the IWR. That resolution and the expectation was that Bush would use EVERY other means available before he used force.
The terrorists have not had a successful attack in the US since 9/11. As discussed here before, there really was no reason to. They got far more than they bargained for out of 9/11. Why spend the time and money here when they can literally get more bang for their buck in the countries they want to take over to make them into Islamic theocracies? That is their goal. Attacking the US is not going to get them as much ground as other countries where they can weaken the government and destabilize the economy. New Islamic theocracies in the making.
Does the WOT only count if it is Americans that get killed?
The fact that world wide, terrorism attacks have gone up since Iraq was invaded doesn’t keep our risk factor high?
The terrorists are very happy we are spending such a fortune in Iraq, tying up our military, wearing it out and distracting us from using the full force of our intell and law enforcement to track them down so our special forces can eliminate them. (Which would have happened in Afghanistan if the Special Forces ground commander had been sent the troops he requested. Instead the Entire US Afghan troop strength was the size of the NYPD … Afghanistan: 29 million people, 252,ooo square miles. NYC: 8 million, 468 sq mi.)
Anytime we do not stoop to the level of violence and destruction they use, the terrorists are emboldened.
This has been building for years.
-The 1983 attack on the Marine Barracks in Lebanon. (278 dead). Reagan pulled them out and did not retaliate. bin Laden noticed.
-The bombing of Pan Am 103 over Scotland by Libya. Bush did not retaliate. bin Laden, et al, took notice.
-The failure to help Afghanistan rebuild in ’89 after Russia pulled out emboldened the Taliban. (The amount of foreign aid we gave Israel during that time was hundreds of times more than would have been needed for Afghanistan)
-Not finishing the Republican Guard in the Gulf War was Poppy’s call. Having to leave so many American troops in the Middle East, especially Saudi Arabia, contributed heavily to the destabilization of the area and the hatred of the US. By that time, we were the only super power left – the BIG TARGET.
-Protecting all US interests in the rest of the world does not come easy or cheap. The Cole was in a known terrorist haven – against policy. The Embassies were getting higher up the priority list for the money to make them safer – but until those attacks, Congress was not willing to appropriate the $. Afterwards, Clarke sent out full crews to assess every Embasy and determine what needed to be done. Some had to be sold and a new one established because the old one could not be made safer.
-Even though Clinton did not pull out of Somalia (Bush I put us in there in 12/92) right after the Black Hawk Down incident (when the Congressional Right Wing was insisting on it) the fact that there were no further US fatalities for the remaining six months we were there (the time limit he gave the UN) and the transfer was orderly, the terrorists saw it as a victory: because we didn’t bomb Somalia to the stone age.
-Clinton’s administration foiled many attacks. Most notably 3 out of 4 of the planned millenial attacks. The 4th was an attempt on the air craft carrier The Sullivans. It failed because the terrorists overloaded the boat with all the explosives and it sank before it got near the carrier.
-The Cole was a follow up. Because the intell to confirm resonsibility takes time and this happened in a country with both a poor history of harboring terrorists plus a US Ambassador who ran more interference than help, the final certification of responsibility for the attacks did not happen until Bush took office. The decision was that it was “too late” to retaliate.??? Like time bothers the terrorists. It was only 3 months since the attack. Talk about emboldening the plans for 9/11!!! ‘Duck and Run’?
Read Clarke on the PDDs for the antiterrorism program that was in place – since ’98 – that Bush inherited. Read all of Chapter 7. There was an earlier PDD in ’93 – Clinton’s first year in office. If that whole effort and plan wasn’t comprehensive, certainly compared to what BushCo DIDN’T have, I don’t know what kind of utopia you think we live in.
Oh, if we are blaming Clinton for the 9/01 WTC attack, surely we should blame Poppy for the 2/93 attack? Two of those terrorists had shown up at JFK the year before without documents (passport, visa…) One was detained because he had manuals on “How to Make a Bomb”. The other was allowed in. His name was Ramzi Yousef. Clinton’s administration brought all the ’93 WTC perps to trial and conviction – in 4 years, no wars.
When Saddam tried to kill Poppy in 4/93, Clarke discovered the Kuwait cover up and the Clinton Administration pursued it. When Saddam was confirmed as the cause, Clinton’s retaliation was to bomb the Iraqi Intel headquarters – on a Saturday night to minimize deaths. There was no evidence after that 6/93 retaliation that Saddam ever again supported terrorism directed at the US.
Supposedly God used force. He also reportedly said “Vengeance is mine” etc. I am not a Christian and frankly get disgusted with how much the Bible and the Churches have misinterpreted what seems to me a very clear and wise doctrine. I also fully agree with Ayn Rand. Whoever intitiates the use of force is the culprit. You can’t say that threatening is equal or that disqualifies our use of threatening force. Regardless of how little value people who believe in violence as a solution give them, economic force and diplomacy have done at least as much good- with nowhere near the harm- as war.
At this point, the history of man, war and peace; may not give us the best insight for what to do in the age we are in. The technology, ideology, population, global environment and other threats should all force us to think different. Or as Einstein put it:
“We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”
Kerry4prez,
First, time to change the name. W stole that election fair and square.
Second, I do not claim to speak for God, the Bible does. Try reading it. I’ll bet the word “smote” was used more “peace”, especially when God was angry. You relativists do not get the concept of right and wrong (many do not get it because the do not believe in God, so there is no ultimate punishment for doing whatever you want). Predicted response – “Tex you are a Pat Robertson nutjob”.
Last, left-wing, black-helicopter, Bush-is-the-Anti-Christ blogs are a dime a dozen. I will be out of your lives by tomorrow and you guys can take your group-think blog to the vast uncharted terrorities left of the Milky Way. Truly you are making a diffence. Nice chatting with each of you. You are more civilized and friendly than the Kos crowd.
Tex,
How can we be safer, if the FBI keeps finding and foiling terrorist attack plots inside the US? This tells me that we are not safe; how many terrorists have the FBI yet to catch or know about? I give the FBI full credit, but that just proves we have people in this country that hate America and want to kill us. I will feel safer when we find bin Laden, and when we destroy Al Qaida for good. Right now there are more terrorists than there were on 9-11. That does not make us safer. They are present in 65 countries all over the world. The victims of the African embassies were not safe, neither were those unfortunate Americans who died in the Cole attack. The 9-11 attacks did emboldened terrorists but the Iraq war has emboldened them to a much larger degree so says this administration’s own NIE report based on the consensus of their own 16 spy agencies.
Democrats have never said that we won’t finish the job in Iraq or that we won’t fight the war on terror. This administration misjudged the threat of the insurgency and had no post-war plan in place in Iraq. Democrats want to win the Iraq war but if we stay the current course we will lose the Iraq war. No, terrorism was not invented after we invaded Iraq. But there are more terrorists in that region today because of the incompetence of this administration in executing the war. The terrorists who attacked us on 9-11 were from Afghanistan not Iraq. The president is on record saying there was no connection between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. The terrorists are still there in Afghanistan. The Taliban have taken over the southern part of that country. We need to send more troops to find and kill them in Afghanistan. The plot to blow up airlines that was foiled recently by British authorities originated in Afghanistan and not in Iraq. Those terrorists are still calling the shots from that country.
Political power is not backed by force, it is backed by diplomacy first and then by force if and only if it is the only course left to follow. Brawn is nothing without brains. The president of Iran is a dictator which is why we need to engage him in diplomacy that is why President Reagan engaged in diplomacy with the former Soviet Union and ended the Cold war. That is why President Nixon used diplomacy to reach out to China. War cannot be the only choice, it has to be the last choice. God is always merciful and kind. He is forgiving and he has never used force against his children. God teaches us to forgive those who trespass against us. He does not teach us to start wars.
My login is not in relation to the last election, it is in relation to the coming 2008 Presidential election.
Read the Bible. I have.
Pity Jack Abramoff (in prison)/Tom DeLay/Duke Cunningham (in prison)/Bob Ney (pleaded guilty)/Katherine Harris don’t follow what it says….aw, taking bribes and stealing an election to get ahead…breaking a crucial Commandment to get ahead…not that’s really following the Bible and showing respect for the Good Book.
Good bye already, Tex? Whose is cutting and running now?
Tex
“You are more civilized and friendly than the Kos crowd.”
LOL! We pride ourselves on actually conversing with the other side of the aisle. Stick around you might learn something.
RebelTX Says:
September 27th, 2006 at 11:40 am
“The truth is that Bubba didn’t do much aside from bombing an aspirin factory in his heroing battle against terror. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that he does wish he would have taken up the many offers he had for Bin Laden. However, he chose not to, and America suffered.”
Didn’t do much? See my comment #30.
The ‘aspirin factory’ being the Sudanese chemical factory in Shifa that sometimes produced pharmaceuticals, sometimes pesticides, sometimes fertilizers, and sometimes EMPTA.
EMPTA is a chemical compound that had been used in an Iraqi nerve gas. It had no other known use and was not used by any other nation. It also does not degrade quickly. So if the chemical plant is used for a few days or a week to produce it, traces can be found in the soil outside the plant when it has gone back to making aspirin. That CIA discovery is why the plant was bombed. Yes, it made legitimate chemicals. It also made a nerve gas compound that had no other use.
The intel conclusion on the chemical plant was confirmed by al-Qaeda operative Jamal al-Fadl in 2001, when questioned by Assistant US Attorney Pat Fitzgerald. (Torture not required) Notice the Islamic terrorists have not used chemical weapons so far?
The ‘aspirin factory’ bombing was the smaller part of the retaliation for the embassy bombings. Although bin Laden was not killed at the Afghan terrorist camp, the camp was destroyed and many trainers (including some Pakistani intell members) were killed. The military use of destroyers instead of subs to launch the missiles to the camps undoubtedly tipped off someone to warn OBL.
Clinton spent a lot of time bombing Iraq and Bosnia, to contain Saddam and what turned out to be al-Qaeda militia. Bosnia was a failure for al-Qaeda because of Clinton. When Clarke and others wanted to bomb the Afghan terrorist camps every so often to discourage the recruits, the military insisted they were over taxed in Iraq and Bosnia and could not add the camps. Clinton must have thought it was intelligent to listen to your military leaders.
As I have pointed out in another thread, the urban myth of Clinton being offered OBL has been refuted. Nor does it make any sense to those who know enough about bin Laden’s role in establishing al-Qaeda, acting as philosophical leader, trainer, fund raiser and administrator of a large, diverse and widespread network.
No one allowed close enough to him to relay his whereabouts would have given him up. They are as convinced of his cause as he is. And they know we won’t go to the same extremes they do.
We usually are smarter than that. W has fallen into the trap of going dirty. Did he really think there was no threat from al-Qaeda in the summer of ’01? That the ABM was more important than the terrorists? That Saddam was doing anything to support terrorism in the US? (I’ve also pointed out that the CIA could have checked on the scientists who had been part of the Iraq nuclear program before ’91. They had left the country – there was no work in Iraq).
Just what drives Bush’s thinking and deciding is a mystery to many of us. He’s not dumb or stupid. He just doen’t get that he’s wrong. He won’t spend time on the details or the more difficult concepts, he wants neat answers and solutions. If they don’t work, oh well. Somebody else is at fault or there is no other answer.
As Kerry pointed out in the debates;
“Just because you can’t do it Mr. President, doesn’t mean it can’t be done.”
I keep going back to the same place when reading the thoughts posted here. What is your alternative plan? To throw up our hands and run? Or, is it plan B, negotiate with people who don’t think we have the right to exist? Either way, it does not work. These people understand one thing, brute force. The truth is that there is a war, whether we like it or not. It’s a war against Islamic extremists that have one mission. To convert you to as them, or to kill you. There is no “gray area”, that you leftists love. There is a right, and a wrong, and no middle ground in this situation. There is no room for dissent in the idea that we must succeed to survive, and to do so only emboldens the enemy. As we squabble about Geneva Convention Rights, retreating from Iraq, etc., the Bin Ladens of the world laugh. This is a clear cut issue folks, no gray.
RebelTX
“As we squabble about Geneva Convention Rights, retreating from Iraq, etc., the Bin Ladens of the world laugh”
Yes, the bin Laden’s of the world do laugh, because in throwing out the Geneva Conventions, there is nothing to stop them and others from torturing our troops.
The laugh is on you – fool.
Oh, and Ginny. The apirin factory. I’m sure they manufactured some very dangerous pesticides, or whatever you’re claiming. However, what I’m saying is that Bubba did nothing to combat Islamic terrorism. That was due to 2 things. One, he’s a wuss. He was so caught up in worry of what people thought of him, he could never allow himself to do such bold moves. Secondly, his misguided thought that Islamic terror was a “police” matter, and not one of true war.
I hate to address your silly comment Pamela, but I will anyway. First, Geneva Convention Rights are a two way street. To be offered them, you must PARTICIPATE by them. I don’t think sawing peoples heads off is on the books as far as I know. A second quick qualification is that you must be a uniformed soldier who represents a nation to be granted these rights, so again Pamela, these people do not qualify. It is a silly notion to think that our finest will be treated nicely if we are “nice enough”. As we offer air conditioning, Koran’s, prayer time, exercise yards, 3 meals a day (Specially prepared Muslim dishes no less), ours have their heads lopped off. True balance.
RebelTX
Let’s talk about wusses…
A wuss dresses up in flight suit, years after being AWOL from the National Guard and declares “Mission Accomplished” and then sits back and let’s the country he ILLEGALLY invaded go to hell in a hand basket.
A wuss, a power hungry, misguided, morally bankrupt wuss seeks to push through a bill permiting torture to keep his own ass out war crimes court.
A wuss, lets Osama bin LOST, slip away at Tora Bora and DOES NOTHING since to find him.
RebelTX, Tex, Whoever you choose to be,
The only silly comments here are your’s. Time to leave them where they belong, perhaps, in the trash.
Pamela, let’s please not forget the many times that Bubba was offered up on a silver platter to us, yet politely refused.
Torture? Pamela, these people WANT TO CUT OUR HEADS OFF. I assure you, even though you are on their side, they would not care if it were you or I. We are simply infidels, and don’t have the right to live. Do I think we should be ripping off fingernails? Hell no! However, if the next 9/11 is in plan, we need to be trying to figure out from those who know. Those who are fighting to protect us deserve our support. This bill helps with that. Otherwise, some leftwing looney lawyer would be suing the government next week because Ahmed had his Muslim religious pride hurt by being interrogated by a woman.
Lastly. Illegal war? Do you remember the first Gulf War? Well Pamela, there are “conditions” agreed to in the surrender of any war. You break them, you put yourself in peril. Furthermore, it was also the responsibility of all the countries of the UN to enforce law that had been defied for many years. Many countries were impotent. We, along with others, decided to act.
Pamela is right in pointing out that we should behave with civility towards each other. Just try not to swift-boat the democrats on this forum.
Probus, you are right, civility should rule the day. I don’t see that I’ve been disrespectful, and have actually enjoyed reading & posting here. I’m not “swift-boating” anything, simply pointing out facts. I know that’s a stinging word for lefties.. You know, truth, facts, etc.
Let me ask an honest question. Speaking of the Swift Boat issue. Do you think this was a conspiracy? Or, was it a group of men from the same background that simply didn’t think Kerry was fit for presidency?
I believe you have been uncivil to others on this forum. It is unfortunate. It is our Christian duty to forgive those who are unkind. You equated me and others on this forum with Islamic extremists. So I will do my Christian duty and forgive you for saying, “…is being tested by both Islamic extremists, and leftists such as yourself.”
We too are pointing out facts here. Facts are not stinging but what are considered facts are in fact falsehoods. Misrepresentations and out right falsehoods that are malicious in nature do not serve any purpose. Conspiracies are hidden and secret, what the swift-boaters did was out in the open for all to see. What they did was malicious and was an act of libel. They were never able to support their false claims. Coming from the same background as Sen. Kerry does not give them any credibility. There could not back up their claims, which is all they were just claims. They never took action other than those childish ads we saw. One has to wonder why they never took legal steps to get Sen. Kerry’s rightful and legally deserved medals revoked. The answer is that they could never prove their false claims and the Navy would never go for it because they knew the allegations were false.
Probus. Christian? Lefties should never consider themselves as such, regardless of how bad they wish that everything is gray. If you disagree, that’s fine. However, trying to define yourself as something that doesn’t meet the requirements is not only silly, but against God. Hold your values as you wish, but there are certain truths that can’t be changed.
1) Is it “christian” to end innocent life?
2) Is it “christian” allow a definition
of marriage that is condemned in the
bible?
3) Is it “christian” to lie?
4) Is it “christian” to celebrate
muslim extremism?
* Right-wing nut jobs believe in IDEAS
Probus, that is why we are condemned.
Christians STAND for things, that’s
why they were persecuted. Status quo
is a cake walk, this has to make sense,
right??
RebelTX
You ask:
1) Is it “christian” to end innocent life?
Ask Bush about the innocent women and children killed in Iraq.
2) Is it “christian” allow a definition
of marriage that is condemned in the
bible?
Who wrote the bible? Man. There are many interpretations of the Bible, and the “your God is the only God stuff doesn’t hold weight around here.
3) Is it “christian” to lie?
Again, ask Bush that question. He does it frequently.
4) Is it “christian” to celebrate
muslim extremism?
It seems to me that the only folks celebrating it are those who cry “terror, terror” all the time.
Sweet dreams RebelTX…
Pamela, war is hell. I know it’s cliche’, but true. Does it mean not to mourn the dead? Of course not. Is collateral damage a real thing? Certainly. You come across as if we target these groups of people, which I hope you don’t believe. It takes some heavy lifting to liberate 30 million people, 60 million if you count the Afghans. I think it’s arrogant to think we are the only people deserving of freedom & democracy. I also think it’s pretty silly to think that a democracy is going to jump up and thrive in a few short years. From the history books, it seems we even had some trouble of our own getting started. Heck, we even fought a war between ourselves once to get where we are. (I suppose now it only lingers on message boards)
Pam, Probus,
Your party is unable to make solid arguments simply because it is based on untenable principals. You cannot fight for the life of a convicted murderer on the one hand, and sentence millions of the unborn to die (yet you weep for the 2500+ veterans who willingly give their lives). You cannot stand for gay marriage and claim to be Christian, when Christianity and the Bible itself forbids it. You cannot believe in the equality of man, yet make special rules to assist one race over another. You cannot believe in capitalism while supporting the wholesale redistribution wealth. And finally, you cannot argue that you will make the country more safe, when you feel that you can negotiate peace with madmen. What treaty will UBL abide by? What treaty did Saddam abide by? Neither answer to International Courts of Law, or the UN or anyone else. Where is there incentive to negotiate in good faith? Our only option is to fight and win. Otherwise they will continue their Holy War (and that’s what it is) for hundreds of years. Remember the last one?
Please do not respond with “Bush is stupid”, “Bush lied, people died”. I do not want anyone to die. But if some of us have to die to protect the rest of us, then so be it. Your right to spew garbage, and my right to spew truth is available to us because there were millions of men willing to fight and die for causes they may not have fully believed in, but realized their place, pulled to together and fought for the common good of OUR nation. I do not give a spit about a desert nation in the middle east. You talk about innocent women and children. They are not innocent. They would kill YOU as fast as they would kill me. Do you remember Vietnam? Women and children were soldiers to. As they were in Korea, WWII, and WW1. The difference is that precision guided bombs have replaced carpet bombing. We are nice. If people die, that is war. May Allah have mercy on their souls. War is a series of failures that culminate in victory for the winner.
I do not recall the negotions that culminated in us NOT being attacked during Carter or Clinton’s administrations. If what you say is true, and engagement is what is needed, then why all the attacks during “peaceful”, “diplomatic” Democrats reigns? The truth is they do not care who is in office. Understand infidels?
Blame it on Bush cannot be your basis for all arguments. He has only been in office for 5 years. We have been being attacked by these guys for hundreds of years. If you want to build good arguments, start with the Bible, work your way through Hobbes, Locke, Bentham, Rousseau, Marx, etc. Read it and tell me it does not change your way of thinking. Atheism/Communism/Secularism is a failed trinity. Relativism is the failure of the left. If you believe that everything is okay, you believe in nothing. Without good or bad, right or wrong, there is no heaven or hell and our entire system of punishment and reward breaks down.
That’s my last post. I am not RebelTX. I enjoyed trying to bring you guys some common sense enlightenment. We should all re-evaluate our thinking from time to time to see if it passes the smell test.
Tex,
No, the Democratic Party is based on solid principles, which is why most polls show that Americans think that democrats would do a better job than republicans. I personally am in favor of the death penalty as is Sen. Kerry. Those who are against the death penalty are against it based on their religious beliefs and I respect them for it. I am pro-choice because I don’t think the government of all people should tell women what they can do with their bodies. Old men who will never have children and don’t know the pain of childbirth can’t interfere with their right to choose. Abortion is not murder in my book. Yes, I do weep for the more than 2,700 troops who have died. Just because they willingly chose to serve their country does not mean they deserved to die.
Yes, I do stand with my gay brothers and sisters because I am a Christian. The Bible may forbid it, but then the Bible also advocates slavery. Because I believe in the equality of all men and women, I believe in Affirmative Action. It levels the playing field for minorities. Affirmative Action does not discriminate against white Americans it allows them to compete in a world that still judges them by the color of their skin. Racism is alive and well and we must take steps to eradicate it from the face of the Earth because it is evil, immoral, and very anti-Christianity.
Yes, I can believe in capitalism and still stand up for the little man who gets short changed by the Enrons and Halliburtons of this world. I can argue that we will make the country safer as do the capable leaders of my great Democratic Party like Sen. Kerry because thanks to this Administration we understand what mistakes not to make. It is important to use diplomacy with our enemies and not just against our friends. Diplomacy finally got us out of Vietnam, Reagan used to end the Cold war, Nixon used it in China and Secretary James Baker used it in the first Gulf War. We have to use it in North Korea and Iran because since this president took office they have become stronger and more dangerous then before he took office. No one expects bin Laden to abide by any treaty, he is a terrorist. The same goes for Saddam Hussein. But then he was a lesser threat to us than bin Laden was. No one expects them to answer to the International Courts of Law, or the UN either.
We negotiate only with our enemies not with our friends, the incentive is to bring them to the negotiating table and bring the matter to a resolution. War is not the only option otherwise republican presidents would not have used diplomacy as extensively as they did. Holy wars have always continued and always will; starting a war will only exacerbate the situation not solve it. We must only start wars as a last resort and only if our immediate national security is threatened, which was not the case with both the Gulf war and the Iraq war.
I don’t think the president is stupid, but he has lied to the American people and that disappoints me. We were told at the start of the Iraq war that there was a direct connection between Saddam and bin Laden now the president tells us there was no direct connection. So why did we go there in the aftermath of 9-11? I agree in keeping our country safe we may suffer casualties of our brave men and women, but, that is why we must not mislead the American people by making a false case for the wrong war. The Afghanistan war is the right war. The Iraq war is the wrong war. If you disagree with me, I am spewing garbage? Well, I do not think that just because I disagree with your political views you are spewing garbage; you think otherwise. I respect our democracy and your right to dissent enough to not say that. Yes, because the sacrifice was made, because blood was shed I will fight for your right to dissent and disagree because this is a democracy.
Not all people in the “desert” want to kill us. Those that do are in Afghanistan, which is not a desert, they were not in Iraq – we started the wrong war. Because of that Iraq has now become a haven for Al Qaida. We were supposed to get the terrorists who caused 9-11, which originated in Afghanistan not in Iraq. Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11 according to President Bush himself. Yes, we on this forum which includes many brave veterans who remember Vietnam, believe it is impossible to forget that mistake. Going there did not prevent the spread of communism. The Iraq war has lasted longer that WWII. Talk about gross mismanagement, Secretary Rumsfeld thought that we would not stay there longer than 6 months – that is incompetence on a very grand scale. Like I said we may negotiate with nations like Iran and North Korea but no democrat has ever argued in favor of negotiating with terrorists. I will say again that we must use diplomacy when we can, and that war can only be a last resort. That is not to say that democrats would not go to war. We would but only as a last resort and if and only if our direct national security was threatened.
I don’t blame my president however I do question his motivations, and his judgments. I don’t blame him for the attacks of hundreds of years ago. But I do question why he kept reading to children after he found out that we had been hit on September 11, 2001. It happened on his watch. Why did he keep sitting there when he was the commander-in-chief? I do not use the Bible to form political arguments I use it further my religious and spiritual thinking. I don’t think that relativism is part of the left. The left is not bound atheism, communism, secularism or even relativism. You have not understood what our party truly stands for. We stand for the American people we stand for integrity, morality and doing right by our people. If we disagree with republicans we do not think them as evil or wrong. We fight for their right to dissent. We stand for liberty and we stand by the Constitution of the United States and don’t believe in rewriting it or our history. I appreciate the views you have brought to this forum, I do not condemn your views I only disagree with them. It is your right to voice your views and I and others on this forum chose to voice ours. Democrats on this forum have come to hold their views and beliefs they hold due to their life experiences and beliefs that are unique to them as individuals and Americans. We do not ask you to change your views. You must respect our views and not try to alter them.